hummingwolf | My reaction to That Meme

I believe in basic human rights for everyone, whether or not they deserve them.

I believe that adults have the right to enter into contracts of whatever form, as long as those contracts are made through mutual consent and do not harm others or induce either party to break some necessary law (such as laws against murder). I believe that this right exists whether or not the parties have ever had sex with each other.

I believe that all sex acts should be consensual.

I believe that adults have a right to privacy and freedom from government intrusion into their private lives. I believe that this right extends to consensual sexual behavior which does no demonstrable harm to others and does not involve breach of contract with others.

I believe that the right to freedom of association extends to people of whom you disapprove.

I believe in rule by law, not by individuals or groups who consider themselves outside or above the law.

I believe that where laws are unjust, they must be changed; but also that when those in authority break the law, they deserve greater punishment than those under their authority. I believe that those at the highest levels of government should be held to the highest standards.

I believe that any sense of security achieved by the restriction of basic human liberty is a false sense of security which cannot endure.

I believe that the single most important function of any branch of government is to protect the people from the abuses of the other branches of government.

I believe that punishment should come after the conclusion of a fair trial, not before.

I believe that some people deserve to be tortured. However, I also believe that acts of torture do such damage both to the torturer and to the society that condones torture that torture must not be condoned, however much it may be deserved.

I believe that a government which cannot achieve its objectives without torture is a government which must change its objectives. I believe that a society for which torture is essential to the way of life is a society which deserves to crumble.

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I believe we're in broad agreement.

I have been having discussions elsewhere about the nature of torture, or more properly the meaning of the word "torture" that lead me to a certain disagreement. I do not believe that torture should be handed out as a form of punishment to those that deserve it, but I do believe in both corporal and capital punishment -- which is to say I consider the criminal justice system should function as a deterrent and a means of reform, not as a form of revenge. I find torture abhorrently inhuman, but I also carry a different semantic boundary to the word itself than some other people do: there are many unpleasant things that The Ends may well justify, but The Ends will never justify the things I consider torture.

I also believe in a more literal, originalist interpretation of various parts of the Constitution than many people, which has led to several entanglements in the aforementioned discussion of torture. For instance, it is my opinion that the equal protection clause was intended to mean that (for instance) if a man from Virginia goes to Maryland, he is protected by and subject to Maryland law for the period of his visit, and nothing more or less than that.

Many of the people who speak out in support of torture--or at least refuse to speak out against torturers who happen to be on "our side"--have been using the justification that, hey, the Bad Guys deserve it. I can't argue with that, really. I'm not going to claim that serial killers or tyrants or other nasty people actually deserve to be treated with basic decency that they have denied to others. But I believe in basic human rights for everyone nonetheless.

I don't know what kinds of debate you've been getting into lately, so I'm not even going to try to figure out how the equal protection clause fits in.

The debate was over whether the Democrats or Republicans are the ones trying to redefine the word "torture". My inner linguist, etymologist, historian and archaeologist just ganged up on me, and I couldn't keep my big mouth shut.

Equal protection was in reference to various acts, some plausibly torturous, but most clearly not, that are documented or accused of occuring to TWOT prisoners.

I agree that corporal punishment has its place in the criminal justice system (and I also think a wider range of harshness ought to exist within the prison system). I also believe that sometimes standard law enforcement physical and psychological pressure based interrogation techniques (i.e. almost all of them, by design) need to be backed up with harsher physical and psychological pressure.

The things that I consider torture, though, are absolutely unconscionable, and I happen to believe that none of them are sanctioned processes by any organisation acting under control of the USA.

excellent articulation of belief, cb. i agree very much.

Thank you. Once this started forming in my head, I couldn't not write it out.

Well Said!

Thank you!

Very, VERY well said. I'm in about 99.6 percent agreement with you. I believe that people who maliciously abuse others, including animals should be abused in the same manner. I know that's a rather Stone Aged, eye for an eye mentality but it's how I feel.

I especially loved, "I believe that any sense of security achieved by the restriction of basic human liberty is a false sense of security which cannot endure."

Good post :-)

Like I said, I do believe that there are people who deserve to be tortured. And if I let myself think about them too much, I want to be the one doing the torturing, and I would like to be creative about it too. The thing is, though, that I believe that kind of abuse damages the people doing the abusing, no matter how much their victim may deserve it. I don't know if you believe in a soul, but I do, and I believe torture harms the torturer and all those who support them. So as much as I'd like to take vengeance, I can't really approve it.

Thank you. :-)

I've been bad about keeping up with LJ these days. What prompted this?

There's a meme going around which says:

"Why is it that, as a culture, we are more comfortable seeing two men holding guns than holding hands?" - Ernest Gaines

We would like to know who really believes in gay rights on LiveJournal. There is no bribe of a miracle or anything like that. If you truly believe in gay rights, then repost this and title the post as "Gay Rights". If you don't believe in gay rights, then just ignore this. Thanks.

Lots of people have been complaining about the wording, the manipulativeness, or the US-centricity of the meme even if they basically agree with it. What it made me think was that I'm in favor of human rights for everybody, so I started out thinking of how that specifically applies to gays & lesbians, and then my brain went on to connect it with various other recent debates.

Thanks for 'splaining. It was an excellent post, btw.

Thank you, Loots.

scarletdemon said it well:

"Why is it that, as a culture, we are more comfortable seeing two gay men holding hands than holding guns?"

The rest of her parody post, and some rather good commentary, can be found at her journal.

What meme is this?
I think I missed it. My flist either ignores it or disagrees with it.

My reaction to That Meme

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BRAVO! BRAVO! BRAVISSIMO!

Re: BRAVO! BRAVO! BRAVISSIMO!

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