President Bush during a briefing on Hurricane Katrina

[hummingwolf]

The good news is -- and it's hard for some to see it now -- that out of this chaos is going to come a fantastic Gulf Coast, like it was before. Out of the rubbles of Trent Lott's house -- he's lost his entire house -- there's going to be a fantastic house. And I'm looking forward to sitting on the porch. (Laughter.)

I think it is time for me to get away from the news and take a good, long walk.

Comments

[darth-spacey.livejournal.com]

We're not talking about people sufficiently disabled that they need a walker or wheelchair. The question is whether a simple lack of money equates to a lack of ability to do something, anything, to get out of town, given 40 years notice of the magnitude of the potential disaster, a week's notice that a storm is coming, and several day's notice that it's going to be a direct hit.

History tells us that around three quarters of the people who ride out a storm choose to do so, usually out of defiance against the weather. That's a simple statistic.

[hummingwolf.livejournal.com]

You said Nobody is too poor to leave. Nobody. Not one person. Ever. From anywhere. For any reason.

But now you say We're not talking about people sufficiently disabled that they need a walker or wheelchair.

Actually, that's exactly who we're talking about. People with disabilities are much more likely to be below the poverty line than healthy people. Elderly people are also much more likely to be below the poverty line than the rest of the population. Households with several children are more likely to be poor than households without children. Poverty does not occur in a vacuum. If you take a random sampling of people with enough money to drive out of the hurricane's path and compare it to a random sampling of people below the poverty line, lack of money will not be the only difference between the two groups.

History tells us that around three quarters of the people who ride out a storm choose to do so, usually out of defiance against the weather.

Citation from a reputable source, please.

[darth-spacey.livejournal.com]

Suppose there is a man. He is poor. His feet are encased in 18,000 tons of concrete. His lack of money is not the reason he can't evacuate.

[hummingwolf.livejournal.com]

If he had sufficient money, he could hire someone to break him out of the concrete. Just as a disabled person could, if they had sufficient money, hire someone to drive them. With money, they can get out. Without money, they cannot.

[darth-spacey.livejournal.com]

Likewise, if he wasn't encased in concrete, he wouldn't need to be broken out of it. That's not the money's fault.

[hummingwolf.livejournal.com]

Darth, what do you use money for?

[hummingwolf.livejournal.com]

Have you ever in your life not had enough money to buy food and necessary medical care? It may not be the money's fault that you need calories and such in order to survive, but that does not mean that money is unimportant for survival.

[darth-spacey.livejournal.com]

You said they couldn't get out because they are poor. I said that mere poverty doesn't stop you. There has to be some additional obstacle.

If you fix *either* obstacle, they're able to leave.

How are we in disagreement?

[hummingwolf.livejournal.com]

Again--what does one use money for, ever?

[darth-spacey.livejournal.com]

Convincing other people to provide goods and services. Occasionally I use a small bill, like a $20, to light a big fat cigar.

Without enough money to buy a bus ticket, *all other things being healthy/fine/working/adequate/non-encased*, you can still provide for your own transportation, in the event of impending disaster.

I never once claimed it was easy for the disabled to leave -- though the mayor and governor ought to have tried harder to make it easier. I just said mere lack of money, on its own, in the face of something with more energy than a nuclear bomb, isn't sufficient excuse for not taking rudimentary steps to improve your own odds of survival.

[hummingwolf.livejournal.com]

Without enough money to buy a bus ticket, *all other things being healthy/fine/working/adequate/non-encased*, you can still provide for your own transportation, in the event of impending disaster.

Without money, how do you do that? (And people could not have taken the bus at the time of the mandatory evacuation order even if they *did* have money--the bus station was closed before then.) It has already been demonstrated that hitchhiking and walking do not work for everyone. Do you know the secrets of teleportation? Is there some free, mystical solution you thought everybody already knew?

[darth-spacey.livejournal.com]

We've seen one tale of one unlucky hitchiker. You've given your medical opinion that a five mile walk is too much for a healthy person facing a category 5 hurricane.

I don't think that counts as cast-iron proof that there's no way to escape without buying your way out.

[hummingwolf.livejournal.com]

You made an absolute statement that lack of money is NEVER enough reason not to evacuate, not for anyone under any circumstances. ONE failed hitchhiker, ONE disabled person in a wheelchair, or ONE sick person who cannot stand up is enough to negate your absolute under "any circumstances." Your original statement was blaming people much like ME for not getting out of the area, and I do tend to take that personally.

You've given your medical opinion that a five mile walk is too much for a healthy person facing a category 5 hurricane.

No, I said that walking or rolling out of a disaster zone the size involved with katrina is too much for an average person. There's a difference. Actually, there are several differences. Please re-read with your brain engaged to see if you can figure out what they are.

[darth-spacey.livejournal.com]

My point, simply, is that lack of money in and of itself is not a sufficient reason to not try to save your own life.

I think we've also established that other impediments exist that personal funds would alleviate. I contest that the mayor and governor should have done more, both to alert and assist those with more problems than mere money.

[hummingwolf.livejournal.com]

in and of itself is not a sufficient reason to not try to save your own life.

My point is that not everyone who failed to get out failed to try. You do not seem to be understanding that fact.

I contest that the mayor and governor should have done more

Indeed. So should the DHS, which was created precisely to deal with emergency situations like this. There were and continue to be massive, massive screwups on all levels of government, a truly bipartisan spectacle of bastardy.

[darth-spacey.livejournal.com]

You do not seem to be understanding that fact.

*ahem*

Check where this thread started. I think I use fairly clear language to express the exact notion that the people who stayed behind did not all do so voluntarily.

http://www.livejournal.com/users/hummingwolf/293731.html?thread=1751395#t1751395

[hummingwolf.livejournal.com]

Nobody is too poor to leave. Nobody. Not one person. Ever. From anywhere. For any reason.

Okay, clearly I am missing something major here. What does "For any reason" mean if it does not refer to the things you are now calling "complicating factors"? Because poverty does not occur in a vacuum, any discussion of folks under the poverty line *must* presuppose that that group includes people with disabilities, the elderly, and small children. If you were not referring to those, I do not have a clue why you put "For any reason" in your statement.

I still do not know how even a healthy person would walk out of a city the size of New Orleans.

[darth-spacey.livejournal.com]

I don't remember the citation. It was during the coverage last year that I heard that line a few times, I think from The Weather Channel, complaining about how many people had decided to just ride out one of the big storms headed for Florida.